Hi Lieuwe,

To answer your query, I will mention here a fundamental aspect.

There cannot be more than one logo for any organization.

The design of logo (comprising of any element like graphics, text, etc) is to be 'frozen'.

This implies that, once 'frozen', 'nothing' is to be changed in the logo, except the size.

Even for changing the size, the aspect ratio is to remain the same. This means that the image is only to be enlarged or reduced, 'without' changing any element in the design.

Hence, it is not acceptable in professional terms to have one logo with text, and another logo without text for the same organization, as you have suggested.

It is customary for corporate houses to register their logos as a copyright. These are 'frozen' designs, and many organizations even freeze the colors of the logo.

It is purely a matter of Image, Branding, and professional ethics by the operators in this business and the organizations concerned.

Nevertheless, there is no law that bans creation of multiple logos for any single organization. At least I am not aware of any such law. In case the village wishes to experiment with multiple logos at an amateur level, and are not concerned with issues of Image Building or Branding etc, I guess they should be free to go ahead and create as many logo designs as they wish.

Vijai

Hi Vijai,

Thanks for your comments. We are here to help one another, please feel free to give technical advice and or make a contribution to improve on the logo.

--
Stanley Okurut

Hi Stanley,

I shall be happy to reply to any specific questions on my earlier posts in this thread. In addition, I also look forward to any specific questions not covered in my earlier posts here. It is always good to interact with people who are willing to learn. So let the questions flow...

Cheers

Vijai

Vijai- I have to disagree with your concept of a frozen logo. This is not always the case. In fact in my organisation (a significant health org) we use different variations of the logo- with/ without tag; colour or black and white. I have seen this in branding for other orgs as well. You never lose the integrity of the logo- you simply draw from it depending on where it goes (business card, letter head, website etc) Of course you can't have 2 completely different logo's- that would be wrong and confuses branding.
The key with the current PACDOET logo is to ensure that it is branded well- it appears initially in full on major items such as letterhead, website etc. Drawing from the key elements of design, it could be used in a simpler form if desired/required. Again, primarily this would be with or without the tag line
At least this is what I draw from my own experiences.
Regards
Carolyn

Hi Vijai,

Thank you for this piece of advice! Good to do this voluntary work, this way, I can learn something interesting. You see, the demand for the logo came from the design of the website: I want to use the house style to create the website. Since the only part of the house style was a logo which could do with some refreshing, I thought I'd define the house style first, starting with the logo. All knowlegde I have on designing that comes from my passion of painting and webdesign/using visual arts to communicate. But how to make a good logo or a house style is new to me.

Like you, I figured the logo should not change in any cercomstance; that is: the image itself. Therefore I made it in complete graytints (black and white) so the house style does not change if you where sometimes to print only black and white and sometimes in collour (as printingcosts should stay at a minimum). I think printing the logo on a small size the image is still clear. But then again, I made it and I have little experience/self made work I can compair this with, so it is kind of hard for me to stand back from it and judge it correctly.

Also in this case, I think I made the error in my presentation of "the logo". To me this is the logo, the texts surrounding it are part of the house style. I do not know the correct English word for it, but what I mean by "house style" is more to me than just a logo; it is the combined line/design which is used through out every bit of communication (businesscards, letterheads, documents, website, brochures, etc) an organisation makes. The texts I put under the logo is more "part of the housestyle".

Is there a word or description I refer to as a "house style" , like: fonttype used in headers and paragraphs of documents by the brand, the slogan of the organisation (like the text "sence and simplicity" for the brand Philips), visual cues other than the logo, which allways return in every piece of communication of the brand? I only know the word for it in my native language and I am not a designer by trade. How do you see this? How do you call all the style elements (including the logo) like this used for branding an organisation?

And whilst you are at it: Could you help me out by commenting on the rest of the house style I am going to design? I could use some guidance from somebody who knows about what and what not to do, as I am new to this, it is an interesting learning process for me and I am very willing to learn.

Kind regards,
Lieuwe

Hi Carolyn,

To be honest, I was thinking more in the same line as Vijai did. I'd like to keep the logo the same throughout every piece one uses. But I think I did not present the logo correctly: to me the logo is the image without the text. The text is part of the house style of the organisation, and should not be made smaller if one makes the logo smaller.

I wonder if the image alone is unclear if printed in a very small size. I think it is "acceptable", but then again: I made it (spend to much time looking at it) and have little experience in making logos. To me, both reasons outqualify me to really give good judgement about this factor.

Kind regards,
Lieuwe

Carolyn,

In reply to your comment above, let me explain a very basic aspect.

A 'logo' is always the 'frozen' element.

When the 'logo' (frozen element) is used with other elements like text, the 'logo (frozen element) + 'text (or other elements)' does not become a new logo.

In this new arrangement, the 'logo (frozen element)' is still the 'logo'. All other matter like text etc does not become part of the 'logo'.

With this I hope that there will be a clarity on what a 'logo' is.

As an example, consider the following to understand this:

(logo of hp - frozen) + text (Hewlett Packard) below or on either side of the logo

This does not imply that the logo has now become another logo (earlier logo + text Hewlett Packard). The 'logo' still remains the same 'frozen' element, irrespective of any other element added around it as text or other graphics.

The example of your own organization in your post above would also follow the above basic rules on which professionals in advertising and Communication work and communicate among themselves. There has been no reinventing-the-wheel on this aspect among professionals in this field.

So if you look closely at the various 'logos' (as you call them) of your organization, you will notice that there is a common 'frozen' element in all versions - and 'that frozen element' is the 'logo'. All other elements around 'the frozen logo' are not to be confused as being part of the 'logo'.

These concepts form the basics for people who operate within the realms of Communication and Advertising. For people on the outside, it really does not matter what they perceive as a 'logo' as far as general communication is involved, and as long as they do not tamper with the designs or create new designs which are contradictory to established norms among professionals in this field.

Of course, as I have also mentioned in my previous post here, there are no laws to prevent anyone from creating multiple logos. People enjoy total freedom to create as many logos as they wish, and probably for such organizations there may not be any issues related to Branding.

I am yet to see 2 different logos for organizations like IBM, GE, HP, Shell, BP, and thousands and thousands more.

Vijai

Hi Lieuwe,

Please also see my reply to the post by Carolyn above. I can see from your post above that you have correctly perceived what a 'logo' is.

About your other comments:

Logo on a website - a website does not provide any restrictions on the size of the logo.

The restriction on the size of logo comes from the print media. This is where you have to imagine the 'worst' size in which the particular logo could ever be printed. The 'worst' size for any logo is the 'smallest' size. It is in this smallest size that the logo can become a disaster to the Communication effort, since the image will tend to blur and elements will tend to merge into each other as the size of the logo reduces.

The logo in the smallest envisaged size in 'print' must be clearly visible to a person with normal eyesight, under normal lighting, at a distance of about 2-3 feet from the eyes, without any aids like magnifying glasses, special lighting, etc.

To 'test' if the particular logo meets these conditions, the logo must be printed on paper, to simulate the actual conditions under which it will be used after printing.

Hence, if the owners of the logo perceive the printing of this logo in the 'smallest' size on a business card (and nothing smaller than this), then the logical test for clarity is - print the logo in the smallest size on paper, cut out a business-card size piece of paper with the logo on it, and see for clarity of all aspects of the logo using the parameters for clarity as mentioned above.

If the size of the business card is 8cm x 5cm, then logically the logo needs to occupy a small fraction of this size, and it is appropriate for the logo to be in a small size of 1cm x 1cm only. This will allow the rest of the space on the card to be used for other elements like text and any other graphics.

The logo is like a 'signature'. Imagine that you have made a letter to your friend on an A4 size paper in which you sign at the bottom, and your 'signature' occupies
30% or 50% or 80% of the area of the A4 size paper, instead of less than 2% of area at the bottom of the A4 size paper. Similarly on the business card also, the logo needs to allow ample space for other elements on the card which are vital for Communication.

After the logo has passed the test of clarity 'on paper' as described above, it needs to be 'frozen'. For this the owners of the logo have to decide and approve the final design before the final design is 'frozen'.

After the logo is 'frozen', the frozen image can be enlarged or reduced 'without any alteration in the design', to suit any requirement.

About colors - the costs of printing on paper increase as the number of colors increase. Hence, the owners of the logo have to decide this aspect. Printing on paper in a single color (black) is the cheapest option anywhere on this planet. For use of the logo on a website, though cost is not the issue, the real issues are related to 'Brand Identity' by displaying the logo in a different color. The owners of the logo have to again decide how they wish to go ahead on the website.

With this, I hope I have addressed the issues in your post above. Do let me know if I can advise further on this.

Vijai

Neighhbours, I would like to strenuously defend myself in regards to Vija’s reply to my post which I found to be quite offensive. The gross misinterpretation of my previous post about the logo is, frankly, objectionable and this is why I feel that I have to defend myself here publicly. I make all my posts on Nabuur (for over three years now) with only good faith and best intentions. I don’t do this to stroke my ego- I do it because I genuinely would like to provide help and support to those who ask for it. To date it has been an extremely satisfactory and exciting experience.

Vijai, you have seriously misconstrued my post- publicly and incorrectly making statements that are simply not true - eg stating that I think orgs can have more than 1 logo (I clearly state this is NOT a good idea). Your interpretation of a logo + text is simply that- YOUR interpretation. I never said that a picture with or without the tag line is a new logo. This is not the first logo I have commented on and have been privy to numerous logo developments in my line of work. So I am sorry if my definition of a logo does not match yours.
It would be prudent to read very carefully the posts which you reply to in future.

Stanley & Lieuwe I will bow out of the logo discussions as I have nothing further to add.
Stanley- I’m looking forward to continuing to support PACODET in other tasks and liaising with you on line and off line.
Carolyn

Hi carolyn,

I lack exact words to say but kindly request you endure and continue. Your prescence and discussions keep the wheel moving. You may also appreciate our cultural differences and with learn to live with them.

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Stanley Okurut

Hi carolyn,

I lack exact words to say but kindly request you endure and continue. Your prescence and discussions keep the wheel moving. You may also appreciate our cultural differences and with learn to live with them.

--
Stanley Okurut

Carolyn,

All my comments have been based on my own hard-core experiences of over three decades, including over one decade on issues of Communication and Advertising alone. My only focus has been educative on this thread and based on a professional outlook where personal opinions are secondary, and industry practices are foremost. I wish to emphasize that these are not my personal interpretations, but are the norms which are diligently followed by all professionals who work in this industry 'from the inside'.

i am unable to understand the reasons for the outburst in your post above, since I have merely commented on the issues which you disagreed to in my previous post.

Please appreciate that these norms were not created by me, they have been around for decades, and evolving all the time. What a person perceives from the outside as reality is probably only a myth, and the reality gets known only when you work from within the industry, over a period of time.

I have not pretended to pamper any efforts which I found contradictory to usual practices, and have been very candid with my comments. These comments were not meant to reflect anyone in a poor light, least of all yourself, and they have been purely educative, since I presumed that people at the other end wish to learn. Since you have specifically disagreed to the contents of my previous post, I had felt it necessary to clarify further. I fail to understand what you found so offensive in my reply.

In case you find the reality of the Communication and Advertising areas contrary to your own perceptions, you should be blaming this industry and not me for using practices to which you do not agree. I have simply brought forth some aspects of the norms which professionals diligently observe in this industry, and I have merely provided professional advice to specific issues raised by you and Lieuwe in the posts above where my advice has been specifically sought and commented upon. I believe that the people at this village deserve to know the hard-core specifics of the task which they are attempting, and this is what I have tried to address. This has nothing to do with anybody's feelings - these are simply hard-core realities of this business, where we keep our feelings out of the picture when we take on any task as professionals.

Vijai

Hi Carolyn!

I hope this difference in vision of what a logo should look like will not demotivate you in your voluntary efforts you put into PACODET in general and I do hope you continu your efforts for this village. I am in awe of your body of work here at Nabuur, your experience at volunteering in general, and I hope you continu to work with us!

That sounds a bit formal, but you see actually I have seen you around Nabuur a lot, but I never worked with you on a project together and I was looking forward to work with you on one of the proposals PACODET makes. (Unfortunately, I will have time for this once the website is finished. So if you are gone before this is the case, this chance to do this here is gone)

Kind regards,
Lieuwe

Hi Vijai,

Interesting.

I will come back to this "is the logo (the frozen image) to unclear in the smallest size?" once I have done the test you described. But then again, my judgement will be clouded: I have been staring at/working with the logo for hours at a time, so I know every aspect and symbol of it very clearly, and therefore am quick to say all symbols used in the frozen image look recongizable to me in a 1cm x 1cm size from about 2-3 feet. But let me do the test first and then see what happens.

Do you think the frozen image is to unclear to you when you do this test? Which parts are they? If so, I am sure I can make improvements to the logo, which will keep the concept behind the logo in tact.

Kind regards,
Lieuwe

Hi Lieuwe,

You could proceed as follows:

AA
First decide what you want the logo to be.
- Will the logo include the text as appearing at the bottom of the image,
or
- Will the logo exclude the text appearing at the bottom of the image

BB
After you have decided on AA, ask the owners of the logo to agree to your selection.

CC
After approval of owners at BB, do the test for clarity in 1cm x 1cm size 'on paper'.

A small caution here - dimensions on the computer screen are in pixels. A pixel does not directly relate to a millimeter. Hence, it is vital to do the test by actually printing 'on paper' and observing clarity of the logo in a size of 1cm x 1cm.

In case printing on paper is a problem - you could hold any business card of say 8cm x 5cm, and place the paper card on the screen on top of the card under design, and then adjust the zoom levels, such that the card on the screen is the same size as the paper card in your hand.

DD
In case you are satisfied with the clarity in 1cm x 1cm size, 'scan the paper image' and upload on this thread, and let the owners satisfy themselves about clarity.

In case the image blurs or elements merge into each other as the size gets smaller, you could look for a slightly larger size as a compromise, and see at what size the clarity is maintained. This larger size of logo must allow enough space on the card for other elements like text, etc.

EE
Make a dummy business card in this size of logo, by incorporating other elements on the card in addition to the logo, and upload on this thread for the owners to approve or comment on.

FF
In 2-3 rounds of comments from the owners and perhaps neighbours, the logo could be finalized. The final decision must be of the owners of the logo.

Freeze the 'logo' at this stage. Freeze only the 'logo' and not the other elements. The other elements do not need freezing at this stage. Based on my earlier comments in this thread, I am sure that there is total clarity by now on what a 'logo' is.

GG
The frozen 'logo' is now ready to be used on the website design on which you are presently working. You can vary the size on the frozen logo, but nothing else. About using different colors on the website, you can decide in consultation with the owners of the logo.

HH
The owners can register this 'frozen logo' as a copyright, if they so desire.

You have asked for my opinion. In addition to what I have already mentioned in my previous posts, I must share with you some intricacies of printing on paper. Even if the design is very clear on the computer, even minor variations in the inking flows while printing can ruin a printing job. This is particularly true when older machines are used, and the printing matter has intricate designs with fine (thin) lines bunched close together. The human skills of the printer play an important role in such cases, and the outcome of the printing job is highly unpredictable. By the time the matter reaches the printer, it is perhaps too late to start all over again on the designs in most cases. Hence, it is important to do it right the first time, and imagine the worst that can happen during the entire cycle from the mind to the printed matter, and then ensure flawless execution.

Vijai